Suitably Flip

Mad Murtha Comes to Murray Hill

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Later today, I'll be attending a townhall meeting held by my Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney.  The stated discussion topic is the Iraq War and her special guest will be Rep. John Murtha, Democrats' most central figure in the cut-n-run camp.  I'll have laptop, wireless card, and webcam on hand, so connectivity and the good graces of our hostess allowing, I'll try to get a liveblog and/or a video recap posted.

Yesterday, John Kerry first publicly endorsed the Murtha plan (even trumped it with his own more aggressive surrender timeline) so it will be interesting to see if this plays out as any kind of coordinated pullout rhetoric we'll be hearing from the left as we head into campaign season.

For reference, Maloney and Murtha both voted for the Iraq war authorization and both voted against the pullout resolution.  Murtha voted for the 2003 supplemental funding, while Maloney voted against it.

Watch this space for updates.

Previously:
John Kerry Celebrates Iraqi Liberation Day By Condemning Country To Civil War
Mad Murtha Monday: Liveblog (Or Maybe Videoblog (Or Maybe Podcast))

---

Update: The meeting has just finished.  Wow.

It was held an an interfaith community church, where it was standing room only, so I was unable to wield any laptop-borne A/V equipment.  There were several professional cameras on the scene though, so I'll link to news footage or other coverage when it becomes available.

After I made my way past the little ramshackle  kiosks outside the venue, complete with "Dump Cheney Now" signs, the inevitable flag-draped coffins, and a barker chiding New Yorkers for not being "hip" enough to support impeachment of the President (I have a feeling a poll would show otherwise), I made my way inside.  They had circulated "question forms" to be turned in to a designated question-asker.  The collector never made it to me, squeezed in as I was in the middle of a long pew (they really should've been using those long-handled hat-passing poles).

Rep. Murtha (and perhaps many of the 100 co-sponsors of House Joint Resolution 73) has found a more nuanced implementation of that plan, which calls in broad language for the Iraq deployment to be "terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date."  Murtha advocates a six-month drawdown to vastly lowered troop levels, while maintaining forces in neighboring countries ready to return if need be.

Judging by the collective response of the hundreds-strong crowd, this pleased absolutely no one.  The vast majority of the crowd was loudly, abrasively anti-war and anti-Bush (this being a district that voted 81% in favor of our Democratic Representative).  Yet, many were also loudly, abrasively anti-Murtha at times (yelling, screaming, swearing, storming out), including when he spoke of specifics of his plan or tried to answer questions about insufficiently challenging the administration.  The collective clearly wanted immediate all-out withdrawal and anything shy of that amounted to a cowardly refusal to challenge this administration.  I assume (perhaps naively) that there were at least a few others in attendance that did not subscribe to either style of defeatism and instead favor finishing the job.  If so, they certainly wouldn't have been wooed by Murtha's plan either.

Wherever the nation-wide balance between "finish the job" and "cut and run" currently falls, I don't expect there are a lot of middle grounders that both favor quitting the job and feel that a moderately paced, partial withdrawal would sate their surrender-lust.  You have to hand it to John Kerry that (more than Murtha & Co. anyway) he's supporting truly throwing our hands up and telling the Iraqis to have nice lives as we scurry out of town.

If this is indicative of a congealing theme of renewed quitting rhetoric, I think the Democrats have severely miscalculated.  Murtha's current plan is a rough average of two opposing ideas, which appears to land him in a very lonely place.  Whether to persevere or to give up, it would seem, is an ideological baby that cannot be split.

---

Some amusing, disgraceful, and/or comically inaccurate quotables from the event (approximately verbatim, with annotation and fact-checking added where appropriate):

Murtha: Scooter Libby testified that the President authorized him to leak classified information.

As Murtha's undoubtedly aware, the President has explicit authority to declassify, so anything he may have authorized Libby to disclose wouldn't have been classified.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: This is the most arrogant administration I've ever seen. [Loud applause]
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha:  According to polls, 80% of Iraqis say they'd be better off with us out of their country.

This is news to me.  I've seen polls that say 80% of Iraqis want a timetable for withdrawal and that 80% believe the U.S. will build permanent bases in the country, but that's different from wanting us out now.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: As things are going, one year from now, the situation in Iraq will not be any better.

Great point.  It flies in the face of available trend data, but still, powerful stuff, Jack.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: The situation in Iraq can't get any worse than it is now.

See same data.  It was worse last month.  And worse still the month before.
* * * * * * * * * *
A few minutes after lecturing that challenging the policies of our country isn't unpatriotic, but rather it honors and strenghens the country...

Murtha: Now they're talking about the possibility of invading Iran... [Loud booing, laughing, wailing]  Intelligence was so bad in Iraq, who the hell believes them about Iran?  We're not going to go into Iran. ... We don't have the capability to go into Iran.

Explain to me how a U.S. Congressman trotting that impotent defeatism around doesn't weaken our negotiating position.
* * * * * * * * * *
Unhinged Townsperson: You lied when you said Afghanistan hit the towers!  You're a criminal!  You're a fraud, Murtha!  Sell that s*** in Washington!  You're killing Americans and everyone else!  You're a co-conspirator!
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: There are 50,000 troops with head injuries from IEDs.

This was probably the baldest-faced whopper of the day.  U.S. troops wounded in any manner in Iraq total less than 18,000 since March 2003.  Those with head injuries from IEDs are obviously far fewer.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson: Rep. Conyers is talking about possible grounds for impeachment. [Long thunderous applause, drowning out remainder of question]

Murtha: To impeach, you have to do research and have committees and there's no chance of that until we have a Democratic Congress... You need to sit down and see if he violated the Constitution. [Laughter]  No question, we're going to do that.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Why are you so defeatist? [Loud boos]  If we'd given into the Nazis, we'd all be speaking German right now. [Shrieking and cries of "That's stupid!"]
Murtha:  The money being spent in Iraq should be spent elsewhere, like on homeland security in the United States.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Should we reinstate a draft?
Murtha:  I do advocate a draft, because I believe everyone should have the opportunity to serve [draft = opportunity or compulsion, Jack?]...  Charlie Rangel proposed a draft, but then didn't even vote for it.  [Hearty guffaws ensued from an audience apparently unaware at just how hypocritical the Congressman's joke was, given his vote against the pulling out of Iraq when brought to a vote by the GOP upon Murtha introducing a withdrawal resolution.]
* * * * * * * * * *
Maloney:  I recommend everyone read the 9/11 Report.  It's not your typical government document.  It really reads like a thriller.  It outsold Harry Potter!
Screaming Townsperson:  Lies, filth, and propaganda!  Lies, filth, and propaganda!
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  We're seeing more and more evidence that the towers were brought down by a controlled demolition.  [Applause.  No joke, applause.  Truly nauseating.]
Maloney:  We've had many hearings and we're working very hard to understand everything about the attack that we can.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Why are legislators so namby-pamby about challenging Bush?
Murtha:  Some people don't want to take a chance.  But people are coming around.  I've heard it for a long time in the veterans' hospitals and in my conversation with our commanders - most of them agree with me.
* * * * * * * * * *
I stand corrected.  That last one was the baldest-faced whopper of the day.

A couple other statistics Murtha rattled off which I haven't been able to vet yet, but just sound implausible:

• Iraq currently suffers 60% unemployment
• Only 30% of the country has potable water

Please advise if you're aware of reliable stats on either of the above.

All in all, it was a real zoo, considering the general political alignment of the vast majority of the attendees.  Murtha and Maloney's agenda was clearly to rattle off stats (some accurate, some fictional, some wildly ridiculous), to pooh-pooh the notion that we could ever win in Iraq, to make fun of the Bush administration, and to claim widespread and growing support for their "plan".  The audience's agenda (at least the agenda displayed by the more vocal malcontents) was 1) to agree that Bush is awful and bloodthirsty and 2) to let Murtha know he's just as bad as the rest of the bastards in Washington that won't stand up to the President and demand immediate pullout, admit the government orchestrated 9/11, etc.

If we are indeed witnessing a collective second bite at the apple of surrender by Democrats in hopes of making electoral hay of it this fall, their talking points may be well-served by additional fine tuning.

---

Update:  As to the two unvetted statistics in question, the 60% unemployment rate claim appears to be grossly inaccurate (the CIA estimated it was between 25-30% in 2005).

Also, I think I see how Murtha is ginning up the 30% potable drinking water statistic.  It may be a mischaracterization, a stretch, and a leap from testimony given during a February Senate hearing in which Joseph Christoff, the Director of International Affairs and Trade at the GAO, said that "we really don't know how many households get potable, drinkable water" in part because "65 percent of the water leaks as it's going through the distribution system," meaning it can become contaminated.

Given how much of Murtha's line of bombast trades on stoking the presumption that the administration is secretive, misleading, and double-dealing, a little more candor might go a long way to building support.  Maybe his argument is too tough a sell in the harsh light of unvarnished facts.

Comments

Mad Murtha Comes to Murray Hill

[Scroll for updates]

Later today, I'll be attending a townhall meeting held by my Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney.  The stated discussion topic is the Iraq War and her special guest will be Rep. John Murtha, Democrats' most central figure in the cut-n-run camp.  I'll have laptop, wireless card, and webcam on hand, so connectivity and the good graces of our hostess allowing, I'll try to get a liveblog and/or a video recap posted.

Yesterday, John Kerry first publicly endorsed the Murtha plan (even trumped it with his own more aggressive surrender timeline) so it will be interesting to see if this plays out as any kind of coordinated pullout rhetoric we'll be hearing from the left as we head into campaign season.

For reference, Maloney and Murtha both voted for the Iraq war authorization and both voted against the pullout resolution.  Murtha voted for the 2003 supplemental funding, while Maloney voted against it.

Watch this space for updates.

Previously:
John Kerry Celebrates Iraqi Liberation Day By Condemning Country To Civil War
Mad Murtha Monday: Liveblog (Or Maybe Videoblog (Or Maybe Podcast))

---

Update: The meeting has just finished.  Wow.

It was held an an interfaith community church, where it was standing room only, so I was unable to wield any laptop-borne A/V equipment.  There were several professional cameras on the scene though, so I'll link to news footage or other coverage when it becomes available.

After I made my way past the little ramshackle  kiosks outside the venue, complete with "Dump Cheney Now" signs, the inevitable flag-draped coffins, and a barker chiding New Yorkers for not being "hip" enough to support impeachment of the President (I have a feeling a poll would show otherwise), I made my way inside.  They had circulated "question forms" to be turned in to a designated question-asker.  The collector never made it to me, squeezed in as I was in the middle of a long pew (they really should've been using those long-handled hat-passing poles).

Rep. Murtha (and perhaps many of the 100 co-sponsors of House Joint Resolution 73) has found a more nuanced implementation of that plan, which calls in broad language for the Iraq deployment to be "terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date."  Murtha advocates a six-month drawdown to vastly lowered troop levels, while maintaining forces in neighboring countries ready to return if need be.

Judging by the collective response of the hundreds-strong crowd, this pleased absolutely no one.  The vast majority of the crowd was loudly, abrasively anti-war and anti-Bush (this being a district that voted 81% in favor of our Democratic Representative).  Yet, many were also loudly, abrasively anti-Murtha at times (yelling, screaming, swearing, storming out), including when he spoke of specifics of his plan or tried to answer questions about insufficiently challenging the administration.  The collective clearly wanted immediate all-out withdrawal and anything shy of that amounted to a cowardly refusal to challenge this administration.  I assume (perhaps naively) that there were at least a few others in attendance that did not subscribe to either style of defeatism and instead favor finishing the job.  If so, they certainly wouldn't have been wooed by Murtha's plan either.

Wherever the nation-wide balance between "finish the job" and "cut and run" currently falls, I don't expect there are a lot of middle grounders that both favor quitting the job and feel that a moderately paced, partial withdrawal would sate their surrender-lust.  You have to hand it to John Kerry that (more than Murtha & Co. anyway) he's supporting truly throwing our hands up and telling the Iraqis to have nice lives as we scurry out of town.

If this is indicative of a congealing theme of renewed quitting rhetoric, I think the Democrats have severely miscalculated.  Murtha's current plan is a rough average of two opposing ideas, which appears to land him in a very lonely place.  Whether to persevere or to give up, it would seem, is an ideological baby that cannot be split.

---

Some amusing, disgraceful, and/or comically inaccurate quotables from the event (approximately verbatim, with annotation and fact-checking added where appropriate):

Murtha: Scooter Libby testified that the President authorized him to leak classified information.

As Murtha's undoubtedly aware, the President has explicit authority to declassify, so anything he may have authorized Libby to disclose wouldn't have been classified.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: This is the most arrogant administration I've ever seen. [Loud applause]
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha:  According to polls, 80% of Iraqis say they'd be better off with us out of their country.

This is news to me.  I've seen polls that say 80% of Iraqis want a timetable for withdrawal and that 80% believe the U.S. will build permanent bases in the country, but that's different from wanting us out now.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: As things are going, one year from now, the situation in Iraq will not be any better.

Great point.  It flies in the face of available trend data, but still, powerful stuff, Jack.
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: The situation in Iraq can't get any worse than it is now.

See same data.  It was worse last month.  And worse still the month before.
* * * * * * * * * *
A few minutes after lecturing that challenging the policies of our country isn't unpatriotic, but rather it honors and strenghens the country...

Murtha: Now they're talking about the possibility of invading Iran... [Loud booing, laughing, wailing]  Intelligence was so bad in Iraq, who the hell believes them about Iran?  We're not going to go into Iran. ... We don't have the capability to go into Iran.

Explain to me how a U.S. Congressman trotting that impotent defeatism around doesn't weaken our negotiating position.
* * * * * * * * * *
Unhinged Townsperson: You lied when you said Afghanistan hit the towers!  You're a criminal!  You're a fraud, Murtha!  Sell that s*** in Washington!  You're killing Americans and everyone else!  You're a co-conspirator!
* * * * * * * * * *
Murtha: There are 50,000 troops with head injuries from IEDs.

This was probably the baldest-faced whopper of the day.  U.S. troops wounded in any manner in Iraq total less than 18,000 since March 2003.  Those with head injuries from IEDs are obviously far fewer.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson: Rep. Conyers is talking about possible grounds for impeachment. [Long thunderous applause, drowning out remainder of question]

Murtha: To impeach, you have to do research and have committees and there's no chance of that until we have a Democratic Congress... You need to sit down and see if he violated the Constitution. [Laughter]  No question, we're going to do that.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Why are you so defeatist? [Loud boos]  If we'd given into the Nazis, we'd all be speaking German right now. [Shrieking and cries of "That's stupid!"]
Murtha:  The money being spent in Iraq should be spent elsewhere, like on homeland security in the United States.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Should we reinstate a draft?
Murtha:  I do advocate a draft, because I believe everyone should have the opportunity to serve [draft = opportunity or compulsion, Jack?]...  Charlie Rangel proposed a draft, but then didn't even vote for it.  [Hearty guffaws ensued from an audience apparently unaware at just how hypocritical the Congressman's joke was, given his vote against the pulling out of Iraq when brought to a vote by the GOP upon Murtha introducing a withdrawal resolution.]
* * * * * * * * * *
Maloney:  I recommend everyone read the 9/11 Report.  It's not your typical government document.  It really reads like a thriller.  It outsold Harry Potter!
Screaming Townsperson:  Lies, filth, and propaganda!  Lies, filth, and propaganda!
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  We're seeing more and more evidence that the towers were brought down by a controlled demolition.  [Applause.  No joke, applause.  Truly nauseating.]
Maloney:  We've had many hearings and we're working very hard to understand everything about the attack that we can.
* * * * * * * * * *
Question from Townsperson:  Why are legislators so namby-pamby about challenging Bush?
Murtha:  Some people don't want to take a chance.  But people are coming around.  I've heard it for a long time in the veterans' hospitals and in my conversation with our commanders - most of them agree with me.
* * * * * * * * * *
I stand corrected.  That last one was the baldest-faced whopper of the day.

A couple other statistics Murtha rattled off which I haven't been able to vet yet, but just sound implausible:

• Iraq currently suffers 60% unemployment
• Only 30% of the country has potable water

Please advise if you're aware of reliable stats on either of the above.

All in all, it was a real zoo, considering the general political alignment of the vast majority of the attendees.  Murtha and Maloney's agenda was clearly to rattle off stats (some accurate, some fictional, some wildly ridiculous), to pooh-pooh the notion that we could ever win in Iraq, to make fun of the Bush administration, and to claim widespread and growing support for their "plan".  The audience's agenda (at least the agenda displayed by the more vocal malcontents) was 1) to agree that Bush is awful and bloodthirsty and 2) to let Murtha know he's just as bad as the rest of the bastards in Washington that won't stand up to the President and demand immediate pullout, admit the government orchestrated 9/11, etc.

If we are indeed witnessing a collective second bite at the apple of surrender by Democrats in hopes of making electoral hay of it this fall, their talking points may be well-served by additional fine tuning.

---

Update:  As to the two unvetted statistics in question, the 60% unemployment rate claim appears to be grossly inaccurate (the CIA estimated it was between 25-30% in 2005).

Also, I think I see how Murtha is ginning up the 30% potable drinking water statistic.  It may be a mischaracterization, a stretch, and a leap from testimony given during a February Senate hearing in which Joseph Christoff, the Director of International Affairs and Trade at the GAO, said that "we really don't know how many households get potable, drinkable water" in part because "65 percent of the water leaks as it's going through the distribution system," meaning it can become contaminated.

Given how much of Murtha's line of bombast trades on stoking the presumption that the administration is secretive, misleading, and double-dealing, a little more candor might go a long way to building support.  Maybe his argument is too tough a sell in the harsh light of unvarnished facts.